**** Lloyd screwing up as Chairman ****

[Mail]

After Butts you would expect a legend like Lloyd to be a bit more visionary, innovative, balanced and all the things fans have been calling for.

I think he is screwing up in quite a big way and your views would be welcomed.

Amongst what I feel he has got terribly wrong are

1. Holder has gone backwards as a bowler. He has neither improved his speed nor his accuracy as a bowler and, although he can bat, he is not good enough to get into ODIs. So Lloyd select him for Lanka.

2. Blackwood after a very good start to his test career has been demoted to the A tour and Johnson only after 1 test get in ahead of him. As it happens I think Johnson should should be in the squad but not ahead of Blackwood. Even Blackwood's FC stats are far superior to that of Johnson, so why Lloyd?

3. Sammy? Enough said!

4. Smith after 91 ODIs average 17. Why?

5. Samuels has been mediocre for the vast majority of his test career and Lloyd recalls him.

6. I was in favour of Shiv preserving himself for tests but the man has shown no decrease in his appetite, fitness and eagerness to play ODIs. Why has Lloyd not spoken to him with a brief of opening and a brief to bat through?

What is Lloyd really doing? Is he less of a yes man than Butts?

[mikesiva]

1) WRT to Holder, I'm worried too. He doesn't seem to be progressing, and won't progress, until he gains a yard or two of pace, as Ian Bishop said the other day.

2) In SL, the "Tests" will be played while the Windies are playing ODIs in India, so my guess is that Blackwood, Kraigg and possibly Gabriel are using the "Tests" in SL to warm up for the Tests in India. Hopefully, Kirk and Shilly aren't doing the same, and have actually been relegated.

3-5) We have such a crap ODI side that, to me, it doesn't matter who you pick, we're going to do shite....

6) Maybe Shiv should spend his remaining months just added to his Test record status....

[AFRO]

Sorry Mail but i have to disagree on a few points...

Amongst what I feel he has got terribly wrong are

1. Holder has gone backwards as a bowler. He has neither improved his speed nor his accuracy as a bowler and, although he can bat, he is not good enough to get into ODIs. So Lloyd select him for Lanka.

Jason has been one of our best odi bowlers over the last 12 months or so...don't be a naive idiot like Mike and try to judge him on a t20 performance Mail...you've got more brains than that old fool!! ...Jason is 22 and is still developing. At that age the likes of Roach was still a work in progress aswell and i remember him having some nightmare performances himself. So i'm not worried about Jason yet.

2. Blackwood after a very good start to his test career has been demoted to the A tour and Johnson only after 1 test get in ahead of him. As it happens I think Johnson should should be in the squad but not ahead of Blackwood. Even Blackwood's FC stats are far superior to that of Johnson, so why Lloyd?

Blackwood doesn't play ODI's for WI yet...and him, Brathwaite and Gabriel have been picked for the A-team purely to get them playing cricket in sub-c conditions ahead of the India test series.

3. Sammy? Enough said!

Everyone knows my views on him...but the fact is apparently he's played a huge role in our last three odi victories away from home...so i have no problem with him being picked tbh.

4. Smith after 91 ODIs average 17. Why?

Because Gayle is injured...they could have gone for Elvin Lewis but apparently they want him to play another season for Trinidad first.

5. Samuels has been mediocre for the vast majority of his test career and Lloyd recalls him.

The guy has experience and that's why they recalled him...the year he had in 2012 was as good as it gets imo and if he returns to that form then we'd have a superb player in our side...last chance for him though.

6. I was in favour of Shiv preserving himself for tests but the man has shown no decrease in his appetite, fitness and eagerness to play ODIs. Why has Lloyd not spoken to him with a brief of opening and a brief to bat through?

Shiv done in one dayers..he's 40 NOW!!..time to move on.

What is Lloyd really doing? Is he less of a yes man than Butts?

From what i gather they don't want to rock the boat too much with these two tough tours coming up...so they've aired on the side of caution. After our trips to India and Sa and also the First class season my hunch is they will draw a line in the sand and really start to make some moves.

The odi side isn't bad tbh...Mr england above claims it's "crap" but yet we went to NZ and drew the series with pretty much a reserve side!!.. the same NZ who won in England and SA and also beat his fathers team!! (india)

[Mail]

AFRO,

Your views are duly noted and appreciated as usual.

I am not swayed by the opinions of others but I genuinely think in the 4 years I have seen Holder he has not really improved.

If the selctors are using the A tour to hone skills then that is exactly where Holder should have been in my view although I have seen some improvements in his batting. I am not anti Holder as the COTR has some good players I too feel have potential.

If Windies are to lose, do so rebuilding and using the up and coming players not those who have confirmed their unsuitbility for International Cricket.

In terms of Blackwood, I see no reason for Johnson to be selected ahead of him for a full International ODI series as they both could be good Test players and the ODIs is a good format for Test preparation in my view.

Apart from the Pollards, Dwayne Bravos etc who are unlikely to play in the test series,the ODI squad should be roughly the test squad. And what better conditions to learn in than the one you will continue playing the tests? One does not have to go to Sri Lanka to learn how to play in India.

I totally agree with you on Gabe as he has all the raw materials but just need to get overs, in the longer format, under his belt. That is a good move as I feel Gabe could be part of the future. I had no issue with this strategy.

On reflection, I aso agree with you on Brathwaite v.v. some practice for the Tests in India.

Yes I accept your point on Shiv but if one is looking backwards, in the 3 I believe to be confirmed abject failures, you can do worse than to select Shiv as you know he is not going to fail.

To end on the 3S' in an effort to re-establish the point I am making on Lloyds poor start to his tenure but at teh same time I vehemently oppose their selection.

1. Sammy: He only featured in 1 of the last 3 series victories away from home and that is 2011-12. (2007 Eng 2-1, 2007-08 Zim 3-1 and 2011-12 Bang 2-1). In that series he averaged 2 with the bat and 27 with the ball taking 2 wickets.

2. Smith: It is preposterous to me that One should select a man who averages 17 in ODIs because Gayle is not there. He is hardly likely to change now, is he?

3. Samuels: There is an if, and since 2012 we have seen how unreliable Samuels can be.

Now I do not blame these guys for being in the squad as Lloyd has selected them and teh purpose of the thread is to express and share my surprise at how backwards Lloyd is being no I expected him to rock the boat.

I cannot see Butts doing any differently.

And finally what is this obsession with Fletcher? What has he really done?

[AFRO]

Mail!!

I meant Sammy has won us the last THREE individual odi wins away from home!!..not series ..

As for Fletcher...he had a tough start to his international career and was largly mocked. But to his credit he's apparently worked very hard behind the scenes and his technique has vastly improved. He's still only 26 which was the age Edwards was when he made his debut so maybe Andre has just matured late? lets hope so as we need as much competition in that middle order as we can get right now.

[Colin Benjamin]

As Afro already said. Their is no evidence that Holder has gone backwards at all. That's the strangest thing i've heard in a while. In fact its the exact opposite, since Holder made his international debut in 2013, he keeps getting better. So im unsure of which Holder Mr Mail has been watching.

Criticizing Blackwood's position in the A-team is also illogical. Its a simple case of giving him some further practice in asian conditions before the IND series, because Blackwood has never played in those conditions before.

Johnson is in the ODI team, so how could one suggest him to be in this A-tour? Johnson also toured IND last year with the A-team.

This is normal for international teams. Australia recent had A-series in July vs India & South Africa. And young Aussie batsman Alex Doolan who made his test debut vs S Africa earlier this year & Aussie main spinner Nathan Lyon was part of the A-team matches.

So what exactly is the problem here?

Sammy is now just a squad player in the ODI set-up. He is no longer a fixture, so no issue with him being in the squad, he has his uses depending on conditions.

No doubt Smith's ODI record is poor, but lets not forget when Barbados won the Nagicor super50 this year, Smith did very well opening & showed some improvement. I personally was in favour of the selectors picking Chanderpaul for ODIs en route to world cup because i want to see the Gayle/C'Paul top order partnership revived.

But Lloyd has said understandably they want to reserve C'Paul for tests, so Smith on domestic form is clearly the best replacement for Gayle. Its up to Smith now to prove his nagicor domestic form can be translated to the international stage.

I also accept criticism about Samuels, but the job of a selector is to be brighter than fans, media, arm-chair pundits and be able to look beyond personal bias, stats & be intuitive in their selections.

Samuels recall is a classic case of selectors just believing in a player & backing him to come good. They will either look brilliant or foolish for it, since its obvious a last chance saloon for Samuels.

What is fact though, the windies middle order will be stronger if Samuels is in form.

Comparing Lloyd the new panel to butts regardless of what you think of this IND ODI team/a-team squad selection, so early in their tenure is laughably absurd haha

[Mail]

Your difference of opinion is duly noted and appreciated with much gratitude, particularly the if apropos Samuels.

It is not the first time Smith has done reasonably well in a domestic competition and gone on to fail at internationals.

There has to come a point where you draw the line.

Sammy does not offer enough to be in Squad.

I look forward to my criticisms/ observations being incorrect.

[Colin Benjamin]

Your difference of opinion is duly noted and appreciated with much gratitude, particularly the if apropos Samuels.

It is not the first time Smith has done reasonably well in a domestic competition and gone on to fail at internationals.

There has to come a point where you draw the line.

Sammy does not offer enough to be in Squad.

I look forward to my criticisms/ observations being incorrect.

Well I don't recall Smith ever having a better domestic one-day season as a full time opener like this year Nagicor Super 50. Which is why i saw on current form with Gayle out, Smith by virtue of those domestic performances is the best qualified replacement.

I don't have a problem with Sammy being around, his bowling admittedly has been bit lethargic of late, but i can tolerate him as a squad player, who can be useful in certain conditions.

Maybe you could argue for someone like Rayad Emrit or Carlos Braithwate to be picked, but i don't see it as a major selection issue.

[Mail]

CB,

What conditions would Sammy be useful in? He is meant to be an allrounder and if his bowling is lethargic are you playing him as a batsman?

Apropos Smith! Yes your point is taken about his domestic form and I also take your valid point that this is the basis upon which selection is based.

However a value judgement has to be made at some point having had a long period of time to assess a player at International level.

Smith has had more than a fair shot at it so the value judgement is that he has been quite a failure.

All said, I do wish the squad the very best.

[mikesiva]

As Afro already said. Their is no evidence that Holder has gone backwards at all. That's the strangest thing i've heard in a while. In fact its the exact opposite, since Holder made his international debut in 2013, he keeps getting better. So im unsure of which Holder Mr Mail has been watching.

If you'd been watching him in the CLT20, as I have, you'd be worried too, because Holder has clearly gone backwards while playing for Barbados Tridents...instead of gaining pace, he's lost it! That is clearly why he can't make the starting XI of any of the Tests we played recently.