Talent can trump a lot but at the end of the day there must be a functional level of cohesion between a team and its leaders on and off the field for there to be success.
between 1948 and 1957 the westindies team was a vastly superior team to this current one in terms of ability. yet that team produced one comprehensive victory over a weak and recoverin england in 1950, and a bae 1-0 triumph over India in 1953 in the westindies.
the westindies tour of Oz, 1951 typifies the problem with that team. westindies were thumped 4-1 but could have have, should have won every test to produce the first blacwash in history.
that team as all the teams of that period was torn aapart by leadership squabbles between the white players, along insular lines. it was a war between trinidad..Stollmeyer/Gomez, vs Barbados, Ince and Goddard.
by all reports Goddard was an awful captain, held in contempt by the team. Stollmeter was a better leader, who asumed the captaincy after Goddard apparently was forced into hibernation after the Oz humiliation.
but Stollmeyer as a white colonialist, from the heart of the colonialist elite could not bring himself to defeat the white teams as leader. he played what one of the W's I believe called 'cousin cricket' and compromised westindies efforts against england in 1954
Justice for Shiv
-
mapoui
- Posts: 8507
- Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:07 pm
previously stollmeyer could beat the Indians only 1-0 and by the Oz of 1955 he was ailing and on his way out. and by that time Errol Dos Santos had become wicbc chair.
a racist, dos santos would have a balc captain over his dead body and conspired first to have Dennis Atkinson as captain, then to ressurect an aged and incompetent Goddard to lead to england in 1957.
all this manipulation led to way belore level preformance by the westindies team such as it was, a ridiculsou jumble of palyers kept off-balance by racist shenanigins, westindes were soundly beaten in 1957, trashed by an england team much stronger than in 1950... but still a team westindies could handle.
the Ws were still young men, just around 30. weekes and walcott quit the next 2 years at around 32 years of age. there was no need for that defeat save the absolute lack of cohesion in the team and the selection of 3 players including the captain goddard who shud have been in cricket retirement homes..and one Dennis Atkinson who like Sammy did not deserve a place
a racist, dos santos would have a balc captain over his dead body and conspired first to have Dennis Atkinson as captain, then to ressurect an aged and incompetent Goddard to lead to england in 1957.
all this manipulation led to way belore level preformance by the westindies team such as it was, a ridiculsou jumble of palyers kept off-balance by racist shenanigins, westindes were soundly beaten in 1957, trashed by an england team much stronger than in 1950... but still a team westindies could handle.
the Ws were still young men, just around 30. weekes and walcott quit the next 2 years at around 32 years of age. there was no need for that defeat save the absolute lack of cohesion in the team and the selection of 3 players including the captain goddard who shud have been in cricket retirement homes..and one Dennis Atkinson who like Sammy did not deserve a place
-
mapoui
- Posts: 8507
- Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:07 pm
trundling on westindian racism led to the appointment of Alexander as captain, a near white man and university grad. alexander was worth his place as paleyr and he was a dsiciplining leader who got something out if his team.
it was good that westindies played pakistan, newbies then to test cricket, then Indian not as strong as they were in 1953. also by 1958-59. westindies had Hall and Gilchrist coming on stream and they were well nigh unplayable by the Indians, who had never seen such pace before.
but alexander could not command the respect that worrell did naturally. and worrel was a brilliant man, also a university graduate.
it is only when the leadership of the wesindies commanded the respect of the team did westindies play to its potential..then as now. there must be that functional cohesion betwen all concerned. if the cohesion of the tram is affected negatively, if its not there...then all fall dowm
it was good that westindies played pakistan, newbies then to test cricket, then Indian not as strong as they were in 1953. also by 1958-59. westindies had Hall and Gilchrist coming on stream and they were well nigh unplayable by the Indians, who had never seen such pace before.
but alexander could not command the respect that worrell did naturally. and worrel was a brilliant man, also a university graduate.
it is only when the leadership of the wesindies commanded the respect of the team did westindies play to its potential..then as now. there must be that functional cohesion betwen all concerned. if the cohesion of the tram is affected negatively, if its not there...then all fall dowm
.-
Googley
- Posts: 5465
- Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:05 pm
Afro,
did Lloyd did the right thing by continue to play Kanhai during the 75 WC even though he did make any runs except in the final?
Based on your logic, you would have had Kanhai dropped and WI would have lost the WC.
why do you think Lloyd stuck with Rohan? we all know that he was right...but why did he do it?
Based on Shiv's performances in the past, why should we have the same confidence in Shiv that Lloyd showed in Kanhai?
Who in the current crop of players can hold down one end better than Shiv?
did Lloyd did the right thing by continue to play Kanhai during the 75 WC even though he did make any runs except in the final?
Based on your logic, you would have had Kanhai dropped and WI would have lost the WC.
why do you think Lloyd stuck with Rohan? we all know that he was right...but why did he do it?
Based on Shiv's performances in the past, why should we have the same confidence in Shiv that Lloyd showed in Kanhai?
Who in the current crop of players can hold down one end better than Shiv?
-
AFRO
- Posts: 9502
- Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:44 pm
Depends, was Kanhai POOR FOR OVER A YEAR prior to the world cup like Shiv was? i doubt it!!.Googley wrote:Afro,
did Lloyd did the right thing by continue to play Kanhai during the 75 WC even though he did make any runs except in the final?
Different period and different curcumstances, Kanhai wasn't playing as poorly as Shiv and also wasn't Kanhai younger than 36?Based on Shiv's performances in the past, why should we have the same confidence in Shiv that Lloyd showed in Kanhai?
NASH, Darren on a good day and even Sars, and your point is exactly why we disagree because it seems like people still think Shiv is the same player he was three years ago when he was rightly seen has the best in the game at one point, BUT HE'S NOT THE SAME PLAYER ANYMORE, if he was i wouldn't be calling for him to be dropped and Gibbo wouldn't have dropped him twice already.Who in the current crop of players can hold down one end better than Shiv?
-
Googley
- Posts: 5465
- Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:05 pm
Depends, was Kanhai POOR FOR OVER A YEAR prior to the world cup like Shiv was? i doubt it!!.
ahhh hahahaha! you killing me! you do realize that Rohan RETIRED in 73? He was brought out of retirement to play that WC!!
Afro...you must be a youngster...Rohan was 39 plus! almost 40!!Different period and different curcumstances, Kanhai wasn't playing as poorly as Shiv and also wasn't Kanhai younger than 36?
the time may have been different but in both cases, there was a demonstration of confidence in the first and lack of in the second!
-
AFRO
- Posts: 9502
- Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:44 pm
So being younger than you is a crime now?Googley wrote: Afro...you must be a youngster...Rohan was 39 plus! almost 40!!
the time may have been different but in both cases, there was a demonstration of confidence in the first and lack of in the second!
that's why i asked "was Kanhai poor for a year?", Kanhai's situation is neither here nore there!!..IT'S SHIV WE'RE TALKING ABOUT and it's as clear as day that he's not the same player he was, bringing Kanhai back for a world cup is one thing but you and others want Shiv to be a fixture in the WI team IN THE TESTS aswell even though he's badly out of form and there's other alternatives such as Sarwan and Samuels, that's something i simply cannot agree with.